Gina Gershon

Can Ketamine be the ultimate antidepressant? 

Acclaimed actor and musician Gina Gershon joins us on Plantscendence to talk about her seven-year journey with ketamine therapy. She shares candidly about her lifelong struggle with depression, her many failed attempts at treating it with prescription medication, and the transformative impact that ketamine therapy had on her life and well-being once she discovered it. She describes in detail the feelings and sensations involved, and the profound impact that therapeutic ketamine has had on her creativity – both as a performer and as a painter, a passion that ketamine helped birth. Gina and Jon, long-time friends, reflect together on the ways that psychedelics have helped them both manage social anxiety, negative self-talk, and repetitive thinking.

Gina Gershon is an actress, author and singer. Highlights from her extensive filmography include Bound, Showgirls, Face/Off, The Insider, Killer Joe, The Player and she is soon to be seen in Borderlands and the re-release of Prey for Rock and Roll.  Her many roles in series include Curb Your Enthusiasm, Riverdale and Red Oaks. She has written two books –  In Search of Cleo: How I Found My Pussy and Lost My Mind the true story of the hunt for her runaway cat and Camp Creepy Time a children’s book which she wrote with her brother Dann. She has performed one-woman shows at The Carlisle and The Box.  And besides being featured at Carnegie Hall two times playing the jaws harp,  she has performed with many Grammy award winning artists including Sting, Christian McBride and Herbie Hancock. She is one of the founding members of the New York-based theater group Naked Angels.

Gina Gershon on Instagram

Episode Transcript

Gina Gershon

The ketamine thing- it’s so hard to explain because you’re just like in it. And then I think I’ve had visions, or I’ve seen myself in the future, like when I’m, you know, in my seventies and all of a sudden singing at a cabaret. And I really see myself, I’m like, oh yeah, that’s what I’m going to be doing! I didn’t know, one time I was working on my show, and I guess I was listening to my playlist to see if I got any good ideas. And when the nurse came in to pull out the needle, she was kind of smiling. I’m like, was I singing? She was like, show sounds good. I guess I was literally singing at the top of my lungs the whole show and like, kind of, you know, acting it out with one hand. 

Jon Reiss

Welcome to Plantscendence, the podcast where we talk to people about their most significant psychedelic experiences and how those experiences profoundly changed their lives. I’m Jon Reiss.

My guest this week is my good friend and favorite houseguest Gina Gershon – who is notably the person who came up with the title of this podcast – Plantscendence.  I was super excited when Gina told me about her experience with ketamine and that she was open to sharing her experience with others. 

Gina Gershon is an actress, author and singer. Her extensive filmography includes Bound, Showgirls, Face/Off, The Insider, The Player and she is soon to be seen in Borderlands and the re-release of Prey for Rock and Roll.  Her many series roles  include Curb Your Enthusiasm, Riverdale and Red Oaks. She has written two books and performed one-woman shows at The Carlisle and The Box, and has also performed with many Grammy Award winning artists including Sting, Christian McBride and Herbie Hancock. 

Jon Reiss

So please welcome to the Plantscendence podcast my good friend and cousin I guess, by marriage. 

Gina Gershon

Third cousin. 

Jon Reiss

Gina Gershon, third cousin. Who is a fantastic actress and author and lover of cats and fabulous musician. One of my favorite films of yours is “Prey for Rock & Roll”. 

Gina Gershon

Which is hopefully coming out again soon. 

Jon Reiss

Oh, that’s awesome. Good. Well maybe this will come out when it comes out. 

Gina Gershon

Yeah, that would be good. Good title! 

Jon Reiss

And I was gonna say, and the inventor of the name of Plantscendence is Gina, who was here one day, and I was asking her, I’m having trouble with the title of the podcast, and-

Gina Gershon

My special superpower, coming up with titles. 

Jon Reiss

I know, you’re actually pretty amazing, so-

Gina Gershon

Thank you. 

Jon Reiss

So, thank you for that. And we’re basically here to talk about ketamine. Because that’s your kind of most significant psychedelic experience that you want to talk about or, you know, because you’ve had other- you told me you’ve had other psychedelic experiences, but nothing kind of significant, right?

Gina Gershon

I mean, all the other psychedelic experiences were more for just fun, you know, and like, oh, this will be a journey. But the ketamine- I’ve been doing ketamine therapy for like seven years now. 

Jon Reiss 

Oh wow, that long. 

Gina Gershon

Before it was a groovy thing. 

Jon Reiss 

Right. 

Gina Gershon

And I only did it just because I get depression and I can’t do antidepressants. I mean, I can do them, they don’t work well on me. And, they-  they started turning on me, and they just made me feel a little bit too crazy. And I tried different kinds. And so, a friend of mine told me about Dr. Brooks and ketamine therapy, which I guess he’s one of the first guys in New York to open up a clinic. And I thought, why not?

And, you know, he first interviewed me to make sure I qualified, because it’s not just like, oh I’m depressed because I don’t have, you know, a new car or my boyfriend broke up with me or whatever. It’s very specific, if, you know- he was saying between two and eighteen when you’re developing, and if you have any sort of stress or trauma, whatever it is, your cortisol will come and protect you.

But when the cortisol comes, it may impede the dendrites in your brain, which are like your synapses. And if they’re not touching, which are kind of your mood stabilizers, that’s when you can get depressed or a little thing becomes a big thing, and you just, you don’t have a mood stabilizer. 

Jon Reiss

So just to clarify, when you’re between the ages of two and eighteen and you’re suffering stress, this is what’s happening to you? 

Gina Gershon

Yeah. And so that’s why I have that sort of depression. It’s not because, like, something happened, it’s just, it’s in my body. Because chemically, those dendrites, right,  the little synapses which are like the legs of the octopus floating around in your brains. If they’re not connecting, you’re going to have that problem. So supposedly when you take antidepressants or other forms, you know, hopefully it grows the synapses connect.

And what he was explaining, they were doing studies, how if this ketamine, once it gets into your system, it will grow those dendrites. And so, he said, I had to do it like six times within a period of two weeks just to get it really in my system. And I have to say, the first four times, you know, I was like, wow, this is incredible as far as a trip goes. But I didn’t feel any differently. And I thought, what am I going to do? Because I was pretty down. And by the fifth time, all of a sudden, I just noticed a big change. Like, all of a sudden, the world just kind of went like, oh! Okay. Like, you know, this was that. It’s hard to explain, everything just felt, like, normal again. And I didn’t have any other side effects.

Jon Reiss

And what was normal, if you’ve been having this- just normal when you’re not depressed, you mean, in a sense? 

Gina Gershon

Just, you know, I think when this sort of depression comes, it’s like a negative voice, that keeps, almost like an OCD thing, like negative voices, negative thoughts rolling around and just no joy. You know, you look at something and you don’t see the joy in it. And I could just tell. I get kind of weird- you know, I don’t want to be around people. 

Jon Reiss

Right. 

Gina Gershon

And then all of a sudden, I just woke up and it just felt like, oh it’s a nice day out. It just felt kind of- 

Jon Reiss

And did it happen after the fifth time, like-

Gina Gershon

Yeah, after the fifth time it happened. 

Jon Reiss

So, what was the first experience like? Like the first injection. 

Gina Gershon

It’s not an injection. You’re on a drip for an hour. 

Jon Reiss

Yeah drip, that’s what I mean. 

Gina Gershon

And there’s, you know, some people say they do an injection and that’s it. But this is, this is going into your bloodstream for like an hour straight. It was unlike any, like, high. It wasn’t like mushrooms, it wasn’t like MDMA. It felt, it’s hard to explain, but it was definitely- you know, ketamine will sometimes, you know, they’ll give it to you in the ambulance because it takes you outside of your body. So, you detach, you get very detached from your body. You also detach from your ego. You’re kind of like floating around seeing- you’re just not in your body anymore. And your eyes are closed. Because I remember opening my eyes and my arm was like stretched across the room. I was like, okay, so you close your eyes again. 

Kind of like, you know, in ayahuasca, as soon as you open up your eyes, you’re not really seeing anything weird. So, when your eyes closed, it just felt like I was in, like, an abstract painting, and I could hear music. You have to do music. I think the music’s really important because people-

Jon Reiss

Did you do your own playlist, or do they do a playlist for you?  

Gina Gershon

No, I do my own playlist. And since then, since I’ve done it for so many years now, I do very specific playlists. If I’m working on a show, I’ll put the music on and I’ll like work through stuff. And now I meditate through stuff. But you definitely- when I listen to music, I really understand it. Like everything kind of dimensionalizes. You’re not like, oh that’s how you play that bassline; you’re like, you’re inside the bass string. You’re like, whoa, I understand this vibration. It’s wild. It’s really fun. I really love it. 

And, you know, I think with ketamine, you can get very nauseous. But they put anti-nausea stuff in there, you know, and they keep saying, we’ll come in and check, and here’s a button and, you know, we’ll leave the door open. And I’m,    

Jon Reiss

So, you’re in a private room. 

Gina Gershon

You’re in a private room. And I’m like, close the door, pull down the windows, no one come in here. Because I kind of want to really get into it. You know, and if I’m feeling weird or something’s happening, which I never have had that. one time I was crying a lot, but I also was seeing so many different images. And he was there like, are you okay? I’m like, no, I’m fine. I’m just thinking about people. It was kind of nice. I liked it. 

You feel safe, you know, because you’re in a safe environment. Something happens, you know, I’m in a doctor’s office, right? But it’s a very solitary thing. I don’t- it’s so different than when people are like, I’m going to go to the club and snort some K. You know, it is not that.

Jon Reiss

Right. Did you hallucinate at all? Did you have visions at all?

Gina Gershon

Oh, you’re wildly hallucinating the whole time. But it’s not like hallucinating like, like on mushrooms, I remember, like, I would talk to the rock, and it would drip down and make an oil painting.

And my hearing got really acute. Like, I’d hear someone saying, look at that girl down there. And someone was really far away, I shouldn’t be able to hear them. And I could hear everything they were saying, right? That changes your senses. 

Jon Reiss

This was on ketamine or mushrooms? 

Gina Gershon

That was on mushrooms. So, I’m saying ketamine, it’s different. And it’s like, on acid, you know, things get brighter and, you know- I mean, I always hallucinate, like I look at things and, you know, if I make my eyes a certain way, things turn into other things.

I look at trees or like oil splots, you know, and I’m like, oh there’s a painting in there, you know. I see things within things cause I’m looking for that. The ketamine thing- it’s so hard to explain because it’s just like, you’re just like in it. You’re not seeing it; you’re part of it. You know? And then I think I’ve had visions, or I’ve seen myself in the future, like when I’m, you know, in my seventies and I’m like, all of a sudden singing at a cabaret. And I really see myself, I’m like, oh yeah, that’s what I’m going to be doing! Like, oh that’s fun! You know? And I’ve worked out- I didn’t know, one time I was working on my, when I was doing the Carlisle, and I was working on my show, and I guess I was listening to my playlist to see if I got any good ideas.

And when the nurse came in to pull out, you know, the needle, she was kind of smiling. I’m like, was I singing? She was like, show sounds good. I guess I was literally singing at the top of my lungs the whole show and like, kind of, you know, acting it out with one hand. You know, you’re laying down. I mean, you’re sitting up or laying down, you can’t move. 

Jon Reiss

So, does it only last the hour that you’re connected, or is there a little after? 

Gina Gershon

It depends how fast you want to do it. Like if you wanna- if I’m like, oh my god, I have a meeting I have to go to, or- I try to go home and just like relax and sleep because it’s really- once it- to get it in your body, he just wants the medicine in you. But then in the next few hours, it starts to work on you, you know? But you can go back to work. I like to go home and sleep. I like to sleep a lot when I do it. 

Jon Reiss

So, then each time you do a session, like, is it several treatments? When you said five or six-

Gina Gershon

No, the first initial treatment, he said you should do it, you need to do it six times just to really get it into your system. And then I asked him, I said, when will I know when to come back? 

Jon Reiss

And then how often? 

Gina Gershon

And he was like, ‘you’ll know’. And I said, ‘what does that mean?’ And I didn’t go back for like five months. I was like, ‘wow, I feel better’. And then all of a sudden, the world started to kind of tilt again. And he’s like, ‘wow, you haven’t been here in a long time’. Some people go once a week, some people go every three weeks. I feel like I tend to go maybe once every four months. 

And then all of a sudden, if I go longer, I feel like I waited too long. And then, you know. Because like I said, it’s not like, oh something has to happen if it’s good or bad. It’s just all of a sudden, maybe my dendrites are shrinking again. So, I really try to put it on the calendar like once every four months I go. But I, you know. 

Jon Reiss

And when you go every four months, you just go for one session? 

Gina Gershon

One session. Yeah. 

Jon Reiss

Right. So-

Gina Gershon

And you could go there for an hour, or you could say I want a slower drip and you could take an hour and a half. The faster you do- I like it because I like the feeling of being high. So, I like kind of getting into it. But a lot of people don’t. And I know now they’re working on trying to do some of the ketamine drip without the, you know, the high part, the hallucination part, because a lot of people do not like to trip. 

Jon Reiss

Who are those people? 

Gina Gershon 

Not my friends! I mean, I don’t know. I went to a seminar and people were- i know working- there some people working on that, trying to take out some property, I didn’t totally understand, trying to take out some piece of it that will stop you from hallucinating so much, but it’ll just get the medicine in you. So, I don’t know. I don’t know how that works.

Jon Reiss

And what’s the- is the idea that eventually your dendrites will grow and touch permanently and then you won’t need to go back? Or is it, at this stage, you know, after you’re an adult, you just constantly need it?

Gina Gershon

I don’t know. That’s a good question. I mean, mine have not done it permanently. Like I said, I think, I’m fine, and I forget about it until all of a sudden, I’m not fine. And I start noticing I’m kind of spiraling down. And that’s usually around the four-month, five-month period. I mean, when I’ve gone through a really hard time, you know, like my mother dying, things like that, I, you know, obviously was really sad and depressed. And I went in to see him and, you know, he kind of talked to me and I was really in a bad way. And he was like, I think you need to come in and get another session like on Saturday. It was Thursday. I said, really? He said, Yeah, it’s on me. Like, you need it. I was like, oh my God, am I that bad? 

I love him. He’s like my grandpa. I love this guy. So, it doesn’t feel druggy. I tried to redo the office, so it was kind of more groovy. I said, this is terrible lighting. Let’s just get lava lamps. Let’s make it kind of, you know, pleasant to be in. He doesn’t really get it. But another friend of mine just- 

Jon Reiss

Plants? Get some plants in there? 

Gina Gershon

Get some plants, I just think a comfortable seat and nice lighting is the most important thing. Because really, your eyes are closed. Music is really important. I think if you didn’t have anything-

Jon Reiss

And they have music if you don’t have it kind of a thing, obviously. 

Gina Gershon

I don’t know. I mean, I’ve always brought my own music. I didn’t have headphones once and they had headphones, so they probably do. 

Jon Reiss

Right. 

Gina Gershon

But I think some people- you know, you don’t want to go into the k-hole, and I think that’s when you could go and feel like crying and really sad. And my friend said he went there once when he didn’t have music. I think the music is everything. 

Jon Reiss

So, what is the k-hole?

Gina Gershon

I don’t know. I’ve never really been in it. Actually, I was in it once. I liked it. But I like feeling completely disassociated. Um. But one time when I got really sad, it was because-

Jon Reiss

So, is it kind of like an out-of-body experience in a sense? 

Gina Gershon

Well, I did ketamine once, and it wasn’t in the office, right? And it was very strong. And all of a sudden, like, I was laying on a bed or a slab in the kitchen with a friend of mine. And we were like kind of pedaling. And it felt like we were in water, but we were upside down. Like we were in a shared k-hole? But like your sense of proportion, everything gets kind of distorted, but you really feel like you’re kind of floating in space, and that gets very warped. I mean, I can’t imagine- 

Jon Reiss

It kinda sounds fun. 

Gina Gershon

I love it. I think it’s great. I really like it a lot. I think it’s really fun. But it’s not like, oh I’m going to have some profound experience, like on an ayahuasca journey or mushrooms. I’ve never had that aha moment. I try now to meditate and try to- but it’s, it’s, you can’t really hold on. It’s so- it’s like you’re in an oil painting and it’s like, whoosh.

I always want to paint. I always want to be like, God, if I could only paint what I saw. And the music affects what I’m seeing. And then I just want to put that down. I’m like- and I think it actually pushed me into painting. Because during that time, that’s when I started painting.

Jon Reiss

Are you still painting? 

Gina Gershon

I’m going to get back to it as soon as I get back to New York. I’m trying to find a studio, but I haven’t been able to- you know, I just haven’t had time. But I see it. I see paintings more than anything when I’m in that state. And the colors, for some reason, they’re all- for me in that, it’s all purples and golds and black. And I’ve asked him, I’ve said why am I seeing those colors? He’s like- I don’t know, he just doesn’t know. So, it’s, maybe they’re my own little vision.

Jon Reiss

Maybe there’s another kind of person you should be asking about the colors.

Gina Gershon

An ophthalmologist or a brain person, you know, because maybe it’s something, if you release something, certain colors come through. I mean, maybe there’s a, you know, a logical answer or a scientific answer for- you know, they say you see the light when you feel like you’re dying, you know, certain things are sparking off in your brain. So, it could be letting in that. I don’t know. Yeah, but I should, I should ask someone. He didn’t know. He’s like, I’m just trying to get this in you the easiest way possible. 

Jon Reiss

Is this all he does? Is this his main practice? 

Gina Gershon

Yeah, now it is. He runs a couple of them. I mean, he’s an anesthesiologist, so he knows how to use it. When I asked him about microdosing, I said, what’s the difference between this? Like people are talking about microdosing acid and microdosing mushrooms.

He said the thing that I know is that this is pure. I know where I’m getting it from, this is from the hospital, it’s hospital grade. Because the thing that makes me concerned with like the acid and the mushrooms, like you don’t know what’s in it. 

Jon Reiss

Right. 

Gina Gershon

Which is fair. 

Jon Reiss

Fair. But I mean, for me, because I microdose mushrooms, I just, I’ve had two sources and both- and I have a third if I need to. And you just talk to them and you just, you know, if they have enough care and practice and you feel like they know what they’re doing- and with mushrooms, it’s like, it’s not that complicated. Acid, you’d have to make sure that their chemistry is correct, like- they’re good chemists. 

Gina Gershon

Yeah, unless you’re a chemist. But what are the mushrooms do? How does that help your depression?

Jon Reiss

I was just going to say that, it’s actually, you know, for me, it just really alleviates. It just kind of- like when you were talking about how ketamine affected you and like how you, you know, before that, you kind of like fall into these repetitive patterns and, you know, kind of negative thinking, I have that exactly, and that’s what the microdosing mushrooms takes away from me.

Gina Gershon

Amazing. 

Jon Reiss

You know. And so, and then when I do larger journeys, you can feel an even deeper effect. 

Gina Gershon

And then it lasts, and you don’t have to do it? Or you’re microdosing everyday? 

Jon Reiss

No, well I’m microdosing every other day. And then I take- now I do every other day, but take two days off. So. And then I try to take bigger periods off. Like I just had COVID, so I was off mushrooms, and so that was a nice break. And tonight, Thanksgiving, I’m probably going to go on mushrooms, but I could even extend my break a little longer. You know, because it’s like-

Gina Gershon

I mean, I think the truth is, you know, everyone is different. Their chemistry is different. And I think within your own body, your own chemistry changes over time. So, I think it’s just important to start watching that. 

Jon Reiss

Yeah.

Gina Gershon

Like I know if I drink a lot of coffee, I have a tendency to get depressed after for a while. So, I’m like, okay, I better watch that.

Jon Reiss

Right. 

Gina Gershon

And drinking now, I really get depressed the next few days. It really affects me, so I’m trying not to drink so much. 

Jon Reiss

It’s funny, since I started doing psychedelics, I have a much lower taste for alcohol. I still occasionally do it, but it’s not like, oh I really want to have a drink with dinner. 

Gina Gershon

Yeah. I mean, I now do a ketamine spray too, just if I’m going out to play and I don’t want to drink and I have a little social anxiety or something. I think the drinking, and maybe it’s as you’re getting older, it just feels really toxic to me.

Jon Reiss

So, what’s your ketamine spray?

Gina Gershon

Well, that’s from a different doctor. I haven’t really told the other doctor about that. That’s more, it’s mixed with oxytocin. And it’s really more of an anti-anxiety. To me, it is nothing like my ketamine trips, you know, but it feels- I like it just because I don’t drink then, and it kind of- 

Jon Reiss

Do you spray it in your nose or your mouth? 

Gina Gershon

I spray it in my nose. It’s pretty compounded. I also, my doctor during COVID, because I couldn’t get back to New York and I didn’t want to go to a ketamine place here. So, he made a compound of lozenges for me. But they taste so gross. And the spray, he always says, Listen, the spray is never going to work as much because it doesn’t really get in your system. But in the moment, it takes the edge off, and then I’m like, okay, maybe I’m not gonna drink-

Jon Reiss

I never imagine you having social anxiety, Gina.

Gina Gershon

In the last three years, I’ve really gotten it. I’ve always had a little bit of it. I just mask it. But I’ve also become such a loner in the last few years. Like I’m on my own a lot. And, I don’t know, maybe it was after between COVID and my mom and this, like, when I go out, I- yeah, I definitely have- I cover it up, but I don’t like it. So, when I go out, I’ll do the little ketamine sprays- cause I don’t want to drink so much because then I get depressed.

Jon Reiss

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gina Gershon 

And actually, the drinking, it just makes me- the next day, I lose half the day. I just feel groggy, and I just feel like I don’t like the way it makes me feel. And to me, with the ketamine spray, a part of me is like, oh the oxytocin is like this, you know, bonding sort of chemical. And the ketamine, I just feel like I go to sleep later, and I feel calm. I like it. You know. But I don’t know. I really believe- I’ve been a big believer in ketamine from the very beginning, when everyone’s like, what? And I really wanted to get in on it. And now it seems at least now you can get insurance. Because it’s expensive, yeah. I kept thinking, Wow, this is a great high, but this is way too much money. I don’t want to- 

Jon Reiss

Like how much a session is it? 

Gina Gershon

Like 500, 550? 

Jon Reiss

Yeah, that is expensive. 

Gina Gershon

Yeah, it’s even more expensive in L.A. I refused to do it out here. 

Jon Reiss

Really? 

Gina Gershon

Yeah, because they also wanted to put a video camera on, like- well, we have to be able to watch you. I’m like, I’m not going to be tripping my brains out knowing someone’s staring at me. Like, I didn’t want that, so I never did it out here. 

Jon Reiss

Interesting. I think as it becomes more common, though, hopefully, you know, supply and demand, the costs will come down. 

Gina Gershon

Well, but it should, you know, if you get antidepressants, it’s a real antidepressant, and it’s proving to work, you should have it on your insurance. You should be able to go through insurance. So now certain places are taking it.

Jon Reiss

Right. And then the insurance companies will make the prices go down.

Gina Gershon

I hope so because I think it’s a good tool. A lot of people who can’t do antidepressants, and then they go ahead and do them. I mean, I know for me, I did it once and I thought I was going to like, jump off a boat. I- it really, you know, I think a lot of these people who end up killing themselves, they’ve had a similar experience.

Jon Reiss

Right. On antidepressants?

Gina Gershon

On antidepressants that no longer work. Like an antidepressant- and they’re working on this. I’ve talked to these guys who work at the Brain Institute who are specifically working on this. You know, it’s like if your brain, if your mind is like an engine, the antidepressants, it’s like you’re trying to fill it with gas, but you’re like, spraying it all over the place. So just a little bit is getting into the tank. But it’s also getting all over the place. And so, it’s having other effects. Like I know my side effects when I was doing antidepressants were really apparent. You know, I got very jittery and shaky, and I just felt crazy on them. 

Jon Reiss

Right. Right. 

Gina Gershon

And I kept- you know, you could try different ones. And a lot of times people are not, you know, if you’re a dopamine person or a serotonin person. I was a dopamine person, but they were giving me serotonin, and it really had a bad effect. 

Jon Reiss

Right, right. 

Gina Gershon

And then I was self-medicating with dopamine, and I didn’t even realize it was dopamine. You know, it was these shots that I was giving myself when I was performing. It was C and, you know, vitamin C and vitamin B because I didn’t want to get sick.

But it had this stuff called- what was it called? Procaine in it. But I found out later some of my friends were doing it for depression because it had dopamine in it. But it really made me feel much better. I didn’t- I wasn’t doing it for that. But then I was a dopamine person. And I think they don’t test you enough to see what kind of medication you should be doing.

Jon Reiss

Yeah, yeah. No, I’m not a big- for me, the antidepressants never really worked. 

Gina Gershon

Yeah. Right or now with kids, like they say, okay, well you have a little bit of this and a little bit of- they’re giving them so many different combinations of pills. That’s scary to me.

Jon Reiss

Yeah, that’s messed up. 

Gina Gershon

Like, I want to know exactly what chemicals I’m putting in my body. And, you know, to me, if they’re plant based and if they’re natural, you know, I don’t know. It just seems better. 

Jon Reiss

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much. 

Gina Gershon

You’re welcome. 

Jon Reiss

I’m so happy we had time to do this.